Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Man, I've been on X a long time, and it was painful during the election. And then after the election, like, Elon just turned X into, like, one giant MAGA slot feed. Like, I wanted to kill myself. And I. I'm, like, I'm, like, addicted. Like a. Like a smoker. Like, I can't stop. Like, I feel like it's literally like cigarettes. For some reason, I stayed on X and everyone I knew left, and I was kind of embarrassed. I went to some conference, and they. You could sign up to do, like, a little workshop, like, ad hoc. And so I did a. I wrote, like, I'm gonna do an X workshop. And no one came to my, like, ad hoc X workshop. And, like, maybe I made a mistake. But, like, they. They hired that Nikita and they changed the algorithm, and now it's way better. It's back.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: But no one came to the X workshop right at that time.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: No one came. Everybody. I just. I'm sitting at this table alone, and I'm so embarrassed that, like, I. I'm, like, admitting. I'm like. I feel like I'm admitting, like, I'm a heavy smoker or something. Like, just everyone's like, dude, what is wrong with you? Like, why are you on that platform? But then they got the Nikita guy from GAS and a couple of the apps to be had a product, and it's way better. They've, like, changed the algorithm up, at least for me. Like, I don't have a feed full of, like, MAGA slop anymore. It's back to all technology and finance stuff.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: The bots, you know, like, the bots get. You know, to you, right?
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Yeah, the bots are bad. They're figuring stuff out.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: Terrible. All right, should we do a little intro, Paul?
[00:01:30] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: All right. Welcome back to the Gregory and Paul Show. I'm Gregory.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: Hey, everyone. I'm Paul.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: And we break down latest in SaaS, startups, AI, whatever. The Internet is debating this week. Always aiming for smart takes. But, hey, I admit we have probably more dumb ones that we do, smart ones. And you guys always let us know, which is fine. We love memes way too much. We got a bunch of memes we want to cover, but we've invited a. We invited a guest, Chapin, who I've known for a while now, and he has a really interesting startup called Skill Print that I want to talk about. But, Chay, I wrote you a little formal bio, so why don't I give you a proper Gregory and Paul show introduction? You ready?
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: I'm sorry, am I doing it or are you doing it?
[00:02:24] Speaker A: I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do it. I got it. I got no control. Jaden is a serial entrepreneur and the CEO and co founder of Skill Print, a platform that blends AI, neuroscience and gameplay to help people strength and focus, mood and cognitive performance.
He spent two decades building and investing in companies at the intersection of data and human development with earlier ventures acquired by Unity, the very well known public gaming platform.
He also serves as a venture partner at the Berkeley Frontier Fund and advises some select early stage founders. Welcome to the show.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Thank you.
You can give my background every time.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Well, record that. You could, you could just play it when you like walking around. You just have on your phone like, hey, here I am.
[00:03:20] Speaker C: Boom.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Sorry, I have a labradoodle running around here. That's the only.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: So, So I, I want, you know, you sent a few notes and stuff, but just like, why don't you start with like your background and who you are. And I think people who listen to our show would actually be very curious to hear about your first startup and how that brought you to where you are today with Skill Print.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, actually the real background is I'm one of these folks who actually grew up in Silicon Valley way back in the day. And so, you know, I grew up at the intersection of where Sunnyville, Los Altos and Cupertino intersect. So you can go to Apple Computer in, you know, eight minutes. You go to HP in eight minutes. You could go to all these other places in eight minutes. And it used to be cherry orchards all around.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: But, you know, now it's all technology companies as far as the eye can see.
But it was, it was an interesting place to grow, you know, grow up. The, the high school I went to was Homestead High School, where Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak went to high school.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: The interesting thing is that no one talked about, no one talked about Steve Jobs. All the teachers all were really impressed by Steve Wozniak.
He was a guy who would like turn on. We had a nuclear shelter under the school and he would trigger it like as a, as a prank.
He would call the president from the, the pay phone at the school.
So that was kind of the vibe at that, that whole thing was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, it was kind of like the engineering vibe. Right.
But, you know, no one thought that this little area with cherry orchards etc would become the center of the world, but that happened.
I, I thought I would escape it completely, you know.
Yeah, yeah. But, but then tripped into machine learning in 2005. Luckily, I was working at an investment bank.
I tripped into actually a few things. First in 2001, after the first Internet crisis, I tripped into covering mobile and wireless startups and semiconductor startups that were private, you know. And so I talked to everybody. I talked to 2300 CEOs and maybe 500 venture capitalists at the time and just started to see what was going to happen. And that's an amazing, amazing thing to do when you can hear people who want to do something. At that time.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: It was a little early, but then pre iPhone, right?
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. I was 22,008.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Eight or nine. Yeah.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: So it was. But, but you know, people like Andy Rubin who did Danger and then did. And you know, they, they were thinking about it. So that, that's still the best pitch I've ever heard in my life. Was Andrew Rubin in 2003 describing what he wanted to do.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: Danger.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Danger, you know. So Paul, there's a guy that falls in the newsletter one day and he sent me a message. You, you spoke to him? And I, he got on the phone, we were just chatting and he worked at Danger. And I was telling about like it was. Danger was the first tech company I ever interviewed at and I didn't get the job. It was a long time I didn't know. Yeah. So the way I, oh my God, this is, this is a good story.
That was when I still lived in New York and I was just a kid. I didn't know anything.
Not that I know anything now, but like I had found the Easter egg in Danger.
There's an Easter egg hidden in the first version of it. And so I sent him my resume.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: The Sidekick.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Yes, the sidekick. The first generation sidekick. You could like do this thing at the credits and you could get into this like, hidden game, into it. So I told them all about it and so they invited me to come interview and stuff. But I was like, what's the. I just really a kid, right? Super funny. Like, I just kind of talked my way until this crazy interview. And he worked at Danger at the time, like one of the guys who reads my, my newsletter. So I love these tales of the early mobile.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Maybe I'll, I'll just contextualize Danger, which is Andrew Rubin.
You know, again, I was just a equity research analyst at a, you know, young guy at an investment bank covering all these companies. I, I, I can think of four of these companies that were really impactful out of the 2500. Andrew was one of them. And he, he, we sat there and he was like, there's going to be an app store on these devices that's, you know, that you'll download apps on. And we're like, what is he, what are you saying right now? And he's like, I'm gonna win unless T Mobile screws me. And unfortunately, maybe that happened, you know, but then, then he ended up selling his next thing, which was his next startup was called Android. And he sold it.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: He did well with it. I've heard of it. I've heard of Android.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Hear that one too, right. So, yeah, you know, it's been, I've been lucky to be in the right place at the right time. So after that investment banking experience, I was plucked out of that bank by one of the board members who had been exposed to what we now know as machine learning and AI.
And he had been exposed to it because he had been using those kind of technologies on massive super supercomputers. Next supercomputers.
Sun supercomputers to process algorithms for options trading. So these guys out of Chicago had started to productize the Black Scholes model of options trading, which is kind of gives you a sense of where options will go in terms of pricing.
But productizing that was very hard. And it required algorithmic experience. It required massive supercomputing. But they did it out of Chicago because Chicago is where a lot of trading happens. You know, Board of Exchange and all that stuff.
So what ended up happening for this guy was that company, which is called o' Connor Associates, they got bought by Swiss bank and then got bought by ubs. And, and all of a sudden, seven out of the nine guys running UBS as we know it were these dudes from Chicago. And one of them was my mentor who was the. Ended up being the chief information officer of all that stuff. And so he, he was on the board of the investment bank that I was a part of. He plucked me out and he was like, hey, I heard you want to leave? Which I wanted to leave.
Why don't we start to come together and we'll apply these techniques which we now know as data mining, machine learning, algorithmic experience, AI. Why don't we apply it to a certain domain? In his view, he wanted to apply it to information security.
Information security was a great area to apply it to now, but he wanted to do it. This is back in 2004, 2005. But the lucky thing for me is that I saw it very, very early where this stuff was going to go. Can you get data. Can you understand how a human being acts? And then can you predict what's going to happen?
So we ended up selling that company a little bit earlier than we should.
Became an investor after that. And then in 2009, around the financial crisis, I was an investor and my partners wanted to pull back and I thought this is a great time to pull forward.
And so in 2009 I thought, why not apply the same techniques and maybe get some of the same team back and apply it to somewhere where you can get data at scale. And that turned out to be games.
I love games. I'm not like a gamer per se, but games are one of those areas where you can get data back and forth. And so I applied machine learning techniques to games, data mining techniques to games, which was very successful.
It was a tough business, but I ran it for five years. In 2014, we sold it to Unity, which is the world's largest game company and kind of pioneered the idea of machine learning and data in games.
And that has given me a broad spectrum to do stuff. And that kind of took me to where I am right now, which is adding on an additional component which is how the mind works and adding it to games, data and human behavior and understanding how people act and predicting how they will act and helping them get better and feel better and get sharper over time.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah, the, the skill print stuff because you and I have talked and worked together for a while. Like let's go in a little more depth at it because like I don't think people understand like what I think is so fascinating and amazing about it. And so the way I would describe it that like you've got this cognitive behavioral platform, so you have the platform piece that can be integrated into like basically any game. And then that game, if it has the technology integrated, it can actually understand your personality type which you base on all the science with behind the big five. And there's a lot of psychological research that's gone into years of like trying to understand people's personalities. And usually the way they evaluate people is through like a survey. But what you've done is be able to get the same type of like feedback through gameplay. It's, it's, it's like mind blowing that it works actually. Like if you know, you top stop and think like playing this game and you can kind of tell my personality.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: It's, it's.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: So I'll, I'll step back one layer which is, yeah, there is this kind of. So maybe there's, maybe we can just Segment it, and then we can kind of drift on all these areas. Right. You know, the mind works in different ways. You have your mood and mindset. And our chief scientist likes to say that, he likes to stratify these things. Like, so your mood and mindset is like the weather. It changes every moment of the day.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: How do you feel right now? That tends to be the domain of cognitive scientists.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Your, your cognition, which are things like executive function that neuroscience would say would be like attention, task switching, focus, the ability to plan and execute.
That kind of stuff actually can change. It's like the flora and the fauna and it changes with the seasons.
And then your personality is the bedrock of the earth. It changes over time, slowly, but it can change also. So all of this stuff can be changed over time. And then the question is, how do you change it?
And for me, the game stuff is just the most effective function to start. But it doesn't have to end there. There's all sorts of interactivity, you know, can kind of affect all. If you think about those three layers, all those three layers can be affected in different ways. But I kind of tripped back into it because as I was saying, you know, talking to all these neuroscientists who were running these labs, they were all using games to do things, to assess the mind and grow the mind, or cognitive scientists or psychologists, and they were used by old software, which that was the craziest part, is that they were using my software that I sold into Unity and they were measuring all the stuff with my old software. And I was like, oh, okay, well, now I know that you're doing it the right way, at least, because that's my. I know exactly what you're doing.
So the idea that games or play and human behavior is linked has been around for 30, 40 years. This is nothing new. We're not, we're not reinventing the wheel here. I mean, I guess we're reinventing. We're not creating anything new. We're maybe just putting it into a more agile, software usable format. But this is something that people have been doing for years and years and years in terms of the science and in terms of when people play.
Everybody thinks the games are for fun. They are. They're a lot of fun. But there's a lot of benefits that happen underneath the fun. And, you know, most people say they play for fun. And then what's the second benefit? Oh, I play to focus. Okay. I play to relax. Okay. I play to get more creative. Okay. You know, there's like A ton of them. And then you think about the types of people who play them.
They, it's, you know, everybody thinks it's just some teenager in their parents basement, you know, playing a first person shooter or something and that, that's also true. But it, the, you know, the ARP has a conference on games, which is the retirement society. They have a conference, you know, related to games.
And you know, Greg, you've seen a ton of other interesting documentation on it. So you know, it, it all, all these road, I'm sorry our row. All roads lead to play. And you know, I think there's some sort of interesting thing here where playful interactions really bring out the best in us as human beings and then everything comes from there.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean, fascinating stuff. We've, we've had an article too recently about the research they've done in the bingo. Speaking of aarp, right. That like people who play bingo, old people that play bingo, it's actually good for their mind. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's fascinating stuff.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Well, why do you think that? Why. Let me, let me turn.
What do you think? What do you think the reason would be that, that bingo would be interesting?
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Why do I think it's effective or. Yeah, I, I think because I think people. I, I don't know, I mean I would assume that like I'm not a, I'm not a cognitive research scientist. Right.
I would assume that like you know, you're engaging with your mind and you have to like participate and think and, and like you know, be part of the game. Like it's. Yeah. Really easy to just kind of live. I think as you get older, I suppose like you could just kind of fall into a groove and be very passive and kind of go through your life in a way that you don't have to do a lot of new things. I find for myself, like I do something new. It's hard because like I don't have the muscle memory. Is that, that's like the vernacular, like the term normal people use to describe like you know, this feeling where you're, it's almost passive. Like I'm just kind of going through my life. I don't have to think very hard about it, but I do something new. I go to a new, even like a new location for a meeting. I think really deeply about like mind the right bus line or my enough time to like walk there. And then what if I need a pass to go up to the. Do I need like how much time do I need? Like it takes like a Lot of mental overhead. Right. But then when I go to the same office, like, I don't even have to think about it. So I would assume that, like, you're older and so you play bingo and you're just like, have to like, exercise your mind like you would any other. Any other muscle.
[00:18:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: I would hear some other thoughts.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: What do you think, Paul?
[00:19:04] Speaker C: It's exactly, it's exactly like that. I think it's you forcing yourself to pay attention to things. I think, like as Gregory said, the. The older you become, the less attention attuned to your environment. We become.
So we just exist.
So whatever. The games definitely encourage you to become more aware of your surrounding, be more present.
So.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: So you think it's a, an intent, like intentional intent. And I think that's exactly.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Like, if you pay attention to something, it happens, you know, we had. Can you hear. Can you hear me okay? Correct. Sounds good.
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: We had an email come across from one of the people we're starting to work with ran or runs the memory lab at Santa Clara University.
And she sent us some articles about how if you were to tell, let's say just for sake of example, someone mowing your lawn, that you're going to mow the lawn and you will feel more fit after mowing the lawn.
And, and we're not going to monitor that, but you, you'll feel more fit after mowing the lawn. Okay.
Their metabolic rate spikes, they get more fit.
So it's not anything to do with like, behavioral monitoring. It has to do with just the idea that you're paying attention to what you're doing and then your whole body kind of absorbs it. So there's something really interesting about telling people this is the intent of why you're doing it. And then, you know, things. Things start to happen from there.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I got, I got obsessed with this idea when I was really hardcore into bicycle racing.
Yeah, we talked about this, right? Like a couple, A couple things.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Like, so.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: So there's. There's an old theory about. And like with most training programs in all sports, they basically treat the body like it's a machine. And they believe there's like, limits and capacities and there's all kinds of ways to measure it which, like, works. And it's relatively like a great baseline or a great way to approach training. But, like, new research goes more into what you are describing because there's all kinds of, like, anomalies or elements that they can't necessarily explain. So if you're running a marathon why can people increase at the end? And all kinds of racing, you see this, it's measurable, it's very easy. And people even see it from their own participation. You feel like you're out of gas, but you somehow are able to sprint to the finish. And so the brain and the mind is intertwined into the body in a way that like, I don't think we fully understand or appreciate. And so like, of course for professional athletes, they actually do mind training because they realize this. And there's even like pro cycling teams have just taken it to some crazy level where they have like video games that they do. And like you were describing, they play the video game and they can measure performance improvements in their cycling ability. It's like, it's like it shouldn't, it shouldn't exist. Or we would assume that that's not like possible. But, but it is.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Paul, would, what's your take on all this stuff?
[00:22:34] Speaker C: I think, I think we don't know anything.
That's, that's the real thing.
Right? Like it's. I agree with what Gregory said. I, What I wonder is how do you measure the short term versus the long term effects of either? Right. Like, I think, I think a lot of times when we talk about playing games, it's a short term reward, long term detriment.
That's kind of like the framing of a lot of video games. I wonder if there's any actual studies behind it.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Say a little bit more elaborate, a little bit more.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So like it's very easy to say, okay, you play a game, you, there's a clear winner and loser at the end.
Right. So it's a short term reward. A bingo is there's a finite amount of time, there's a, there's an end to it. However, if you kind of start thinking about a game in terms of finite and infinite games, that shifts the entire conversation dramatically.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Keep, keep saying. So you said infinite games.
[00:23:38] Speaker C: So you Correct. Yeah. So like, okay, so we talk about games. Everybody thinks finite games. There's a clear winner, there's a clear loser. However, in the grand schemes of things, we are constantly playing different types of games, right. So that evolves into an infinite game. There's no clear winner or loser. And how does that affect our minds or body?
[00:24:07] Speaker B: I don't know what you say more.
[00:24:11] Speaker C: Really. That's, that's my question. I, I have no answer. It's a question.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's super interesting. So are you familiar with the idea of finite versus infinite games? Is that something you've come across before.
[00:24:23] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Have you read that book Infinite Games?
[00:24:26] Speaker C: Yes.
Okay. Yes.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: It's amazing. You know, it's funny, I.
How many people are watching this?
[00:24:35] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: I stole it from David Helgeson's office at Unity. He was never there when we got acquired by Unity.
I use his office as my office to do calls. And he had this book, Infinite Games, which is life. Right.
So the question is, is there transference? I think number one, right. What's the transference look like from games?
Number two, what is the, what is the long term view of the mind?
No, sorry, the medium term of the mind in terms of what you want to shift. And number three, what is the long term effect of what you're trying to do with the game? So the short term stuff is pretty clear there, there is transfers and even, even these. Are you guys familiar with the brain training games back in the day? Yeah, all that kind of stuff.
You know, those guys went a little ahead of their skis. They, they, you know, promised to cure Alzheimer's and all that kind of stuff and showed up at conferences and lab coats and all that. It was just not great for them. They got hit, but you know, by the FCC with a 50 million dollar fine. They're going to go public and they got hit with the $50 million.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Is that what happened to that? Because they had the. I didn't realize that was what had held them back. I do remember when they were, they had this moment where that company was like everywhere on fire.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: On fire.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: But you know, they're still around and if you look at what they've done recently, they have a suite of attention based games that they've gotten approved by the FDC for digital therapeutic to treat ADHD for adults.
So you know, the, the idea of like transference short and medium term is starting to be clearer and clearer.
Right. Like short term, obviously you get a dopamine hit of some sort.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: You know, and that might be enough, frankly. Like what? You know, you know, in fact if you look at a lot of like research around personality and personality and habits, personality traits, long term personality, short term personality habits in between, you start to see that there's a lot of research that little interventions start to change your personality over time and games can be very effective for that. So that's a nice easy short term thing. Right. And then obviously when you play a game, you know, I remember we, we did a study of maybe 3,000 people, mainly women 30 to 45 years old.
And they, we were like, well what do you do every day?
We, you know, we take two kids around. Me again, 30 to 45 years old. We take two or three kids around on all these activities, blah, blah, blah.
Do you meditate? We have no time for that.
That's. That's tough.
Do you play any games? Oh, yeah, we play eight to 12 games a week. Were like, oh, that's how, how long do you play them? Like, oh, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe every day, all day. You know, like. Okay, what do you get out of those games? Well, the kind of games they play turned out to be focus, relaxation.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: And they're like, oh, we get a certain kind of unique benefit from these, these play sessions.
And, and we're like, sounds kind of like meditation, like focus and relaxation. And they're like, once they heard it was focus and relaxation, they're like, oh, okay, so this is our meditation. And they realize, you know, so there's a lot in the short term and medium term about intent as we were talking about Paul, like being intentful about it, the longer term benefits. I mean, there is a ton of research around that because a lot of folks have been doing this stuff for 30 years on the research side.
And I think it's more around if you continue to train your mind to be intentional and you continue to pay attention and you continue to, you know, be aware of, you know, kind of cause and effect, then you are much more effective. And, and that is what has happened as people have seen these longitudinal studies. I'll pause there and see if that.
Does that make any sense to you?
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, we got a. We got a comment from someone who claims to be a neuro researcher saying that plasticity and regenerative theories are abounding. The key word is therapy. Yeah. So. So I'm assuming that if they are happy with what we're saying we're on. We're headed in the right. We're heading the right direction here, I think.
[00:29:23] Speaker B: I think the plasticity, you know, thing is. Right, so. So keyword is therapy.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Trend.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Why don't we switch gears a little bit like with Skill Print, though.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Where's the comments coming from?
[00:29:41] Speaker A: That one's on X, right?
[00:29:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: I was gonna say it was like just talk more about like some of the things you're doing. Skill Print. Like so, so because like it's a platform that developers can access and download. Right. And you have some partnerships you've announced with some esports stuff. I thought that stuff might be kind of interesting to kind of just Share with. With our audience.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I still want to. Can I go really quickly on this neuroscience?
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: I think it is really interesting because the, you know, my wife is a neurologist as Greg, you know, and, you know, maybe I, maybe I coaxed her into being a neurologist instead of being a different type of doctor because the, the mind and the brain is, I think, is super fascinating.
The plasticity stuff is really interesting. And I think, you know, you can go at this level where you have to put chip sets in the brain and kind of treat the brain almost as like a muscle. Right. But we all have a mind and I think that is one of the areas that is really kind of un.
Has not been really explored in the way it should be explored because what does that mean to have a mindset?
Everybody has a unique mindset. That's the one thing we all have. It's totally unique to everybody. And then you can see, given our own learned experiences, how your mindset can change. Your own mindset can change, your friends, mindsets can change. The people around you can change. That's the plasticity around the brain and the mind. And, and so there's just so much there. I think that is pretty interesting.
I'm looking at this, this, this, this comment about the key word is therapy.
You know, I think it's kind of the. Maybe the key word might be intervention or maybe it's like habit building or, you know, sort of micro or micro awareness or something like that. Because I think that is the key to the kind of future of, you know, who we are, especially in this world we live in. You know, it's like, how do we understand who we are? That's the first step. How can you understand who you are?
How can you understand where you want to go to and how can you understand the steps in between? So I'll stop there, but we can get to the.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: No, I love where you're going that. Because, I mean, I thought you started to hit on some like, really fundamental concepts like about consciousness and stuff. Right? How we, we kind of like, don't. I would say we don't really have a great explanation for it or definition. Right.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Like, yeah, like a contextual, like a same. The same language around it in some way.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like as a dog conscious, like we would all probably agree, as a frog, maybe as a bug, I don't know. As a rock, it's probably not. But like, we're not really good at like understanding like what consciousness is, is.
And, and I tend to Think that, like, this gets into, like, the whole AI discussion. That, and I like this. There's some people who say that compute. So there's one theory. It's like AGI will be reached if we just have enough computational power. And I'm of the school that, like, there's more happening in consciousness than pure computation and we don't understand what that piece is. That the computational aspect of, of consciousness is powerful and like, the machines we have today are, like, very interesting, but I'm not convinced that, like, more computational power will eventually birth consciousness. I think there's some other element to it that we don't know what it is at all. And it's a, it's like another leg of the stool or something like that.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Paul, what do you think?
[00:33:35] Speaker C: It gets really philosophical really fast, doesn't it?
[00:33:40] Speaker B: And then we'll get tactical in a second.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: It gets really, it gets way too philosophical. Yeah, I, I think, yeah, we're trying to play gods with AI. I mean, no, no, but let's, let's.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Start, let's step back. What do you think consciousness means?
[00:33:57] Speaker C: Our, our ability to change or our, our desire to change as a, as.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: A species, as good of an explanation I've ever seen in my life. That's great, Paul. I like it.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: For whatever the reason, we keep watching.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: That's the difference between, I mean, obviously a dog is conscious, right?
[00:34:17] Speaker A: But it seems like it. Yeah.
[00:34:19] Speaker C: I don't think I ever, ever wondered what it could be.
Not as a dog.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Right. But us humans, we do wonder what we.
[00:34:29] Speaker C: All the time.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: All right? All the time, every day.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Well, I also, I'm also at the school that, like, I'm not convinced that, like, we have a good explanation for it or that, like, the, like, our observable or, like, reality that we experience is the reality that exists. Right. Like, I, I, I, I, I, I get really, really into all this stuff, right? Like, and, and it even goes to, like, you know, the inevitability of things. Right? Like, are we, are we even, do we even have free will?
Right? Like, and, and like, I think our understanding of, of like, consciousness is, is limited by our own consciousness, I suppose is the simplest way to, to put it. And I can't prove it, but like, I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that, like, there's just so much more happening.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: I was maybe, like, six years ago, my wife was invited to a neuroscience conference, neurologist conference in, in Aspen, and I was like, sign me up. Let's go to the St. Regis in Aspen. Yes. Thank you.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: That was nice.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: She had to go hang out with all these, you know, doctors, and I was hiking around Aspen for a couple days. But I, I did attend the last conference, which was the guy who is retiring as the head of neurology for this, you know, the whole association. And he gave this talk where he said, I think consciousness is actually an endemic force in the universe, like gravity.
Right? It is, it is something that is just endemic in, in the cosmic sphere. And I was like, what is this old dude doing right now? Why is he blowing my mind away? It was, it was, it was amazing. You like that? Paul?
Paul likes me. Look at.
[00:36:22] Speaker C: I love it. I love it.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was mind blowing because he was describing consciousness as a substrate of the universe and it's something we tap into depending on who we are. So, yeah, maybe a dog is conscious in a certain level.
Maybe a leaf is. Maybe we are here. Maybe something. I mean, who knows what else, you know, something above.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Right, yeah.
[00:36:45] Speaker C: That.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: The whole idea of, like, can you understand? But then the, the, then the question is, how do you understand who you are and where you are and where you can go to? And that's sort of the philosophical substrate, Right, of this whole thing. But that is, you know, what I've dedicated my life to kind of deconstructing in, in, you know, stupid dumb games that people play, which I, I, you know, I like to. But. But it's, it's, it's, it's important because of that kind of reason, which is you need to understand who you are.
Self realization is the only tool you have. And therefore, then philosophically, you have to get to self actualization, which is like, where did I go? And so then the question is, what are the tools in front of you to do that? And so that might lead to your question, Greg, of what we're doing in Skill print. Yeah, we can keep talking philosophically. I don't, I don't, you know, whatever you guys want to do on the live stream, I'm happy with.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: This is super. I mean, this is one of the topics, like, I could talk endlessly about. Well, so, yeah, I'll tie back to what I was really saying about the platform. So, like, if you come from this perspective of, like, trying to understand yourself and understand consciousness is, Is hard. Perhaps I would just use a word, very simple word.
That's what I thought was so fascinating about when I read what you're doing, that the games and the interaction that you have with them, there's enough Signals that you can use that and, and start to like, learn and detect about the person. Like that part is just I find endlessly fascinating. Right. Because like we're maybe not great at even doing that.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: Sometimes the person is the key thing. Right.
So, you know, if you go to a bookstore and they're, you know, Barnes Noble, I don't know if it's happening in your neck of the woods up in Seattle, Greg. I don't know where you are. Paul, where are you?
[00:38:41] Speaker C: Toronto, Canada.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: Is. Yeah. Is Barnes and Noble back, back in business?
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Yeah, Barnes Noble in Toronto.
Okay.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: Yeah, they're, they're in and out.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: They're back. I mean, it's so weird. Like, you know, Greg, back in, in, you know, do you, were you in Wally Creek when Barnes Noble came back?
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah. My father's in publishing in New York. Right. So he, he was one. Talking about this how like, like ebooks peaked like a long time ago. I had no idea. I want to say 2009 or 10. And like printed books keep selling more every year ever since the, the big decline they had.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: But if you look at like a Barnes and Noble, the biggest section in the Barnes and Noble is self help books.
Self help is like, I, I wouldn't say it's like 30, but maybe it's 25.
That is massive. So, so why is that? Because people understand who they are, you know, and then there's always, always been these books like, how did you move your cheese? Or whatever, wherever that book was, the career side, you know what I'm talking about?
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Who, who moved my cheese?
[00:39:48] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So it's always about understanding yourself.
The question is how can you do that on a, a really personalized level?
And then how can you scale that so you can actually understand other people. Right. And understand where you are. And that has been, I, I feel like, has been a gap. And that's sort of the whole point of what we've been trying to do, which is you really need to understand yourself first.
To me, the games are a substrate to actually get there first. You get there by understanding yourself. But why would a game help you do that? It's because when you do something, the game does something. And games have certain mechanics in it that you can measure and then you can look at those measures and you compare it to.
Greg does this, Paul does this. Maybe, maybe, maybe Paul is scared of a timer, or maybe Chathan is scared of a timer. Maybe Paul's actually good with a timer. Greg and Chathan are like, ah, you know, I Don't like a timer, you know, but that gives you a lot of fabric. You know, when you, when you measure activities and have a back and forth, then you can start to get a concept of somebody's reception. But what we did at Skill Print, to your point, Greg, is we took a ton of neuroscience data, which has been around for 30, 45 years, around games.
And, you know, there were, you know, probably like 600 studies at 2020, and now there's probably going to be like 6,000 studies in 2027 in terms of research labs looking at games and what that does to the mind. But when, again, it's not just games, interactive activities, that's sort of what they're thinking about, you know, but games are again, the substrate. And what we did was we took all those, we replicated those studies.
We had people play games and do the studies at the same time. So the way these neuroscience studies work is you do a task, let's say, let's say for the sake of the live stream, the alternative use task. Here's a shoe.
What would you guys do with it? And I want to hear both Greg and Paul.
What would you do with shoe? What kind of things would you do with shoe besides wearing a foot?
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Go ahead, quick, drink out of it.
[00:42:19] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. Drink out of it.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I squash bugs with it all the time.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Hit your little brother with it, whatever. Yeah, you know, open a wine bottle.
[00:42:29] Speaker C: Right.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: So. So that's the alternative use task. So these are all neuroscience studies that are very validated. And so what you do is you do pre activities to see where somebody is, and then you have them do a task and then you do post activities to see where there are. And that's kind of the, that's the way this research is structured. We did the same thing with the research, and then we just had people play some games in between. So then we were able to model the behavior of the mind as it relates to the task itself. There's another one which actually I think is really fascinating, which is called the trail making task. And our friend here, who's a researcher of neuroscience, plasticity and regenerative therapies, would probably, probably know this. The trail making task, you know, is, is basically a flat piece of paper. You have circles on it, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. And you're supposed to trace those circles.
Sometimes you have 1, A, 2, B, 3C, blah, blah, blah. And it's a flat piece of paper and you're just trying to trace and you're. But maybe the, the 1 and the A and the 2 and the B are in different places. So you're trying to like, match them as quickly as possible. You know, my wife as a neurologist uses that to check for, you know, early onset dementia. Okay, maybe, maybe that works. I don't know.
But also, you know, the Air Force Academy uses it to figure out who could be a good fighter pilot. That got me really going on this vector of this company because I'm like, that's a flat piece of paper.
And you're trying to, you know, you're trying to ask a future pilot whether this is, you know, the, the future of like, how they're going to perform in a spatial environment.
So before I even started Skill Print as a company, we created a mobile AR app, an alternative augmented reality app on the iPhone where you could look through the iPhone and all of a sudden these bubbles would pop up and you'd have to kind of like connect the dots using spatial reality.
And number one, it was super engaging for people because it was a lot of fun just to like zoom around. Number two, the kind of data we generated was stunning. And when I went to some of these labs and show them the data, it was unbelievable because you added on another layer of kind of data in terms of reality to understand the mind.
So that, that is sort of kind of the point of what we're trying to do, which is add dimensions of data around how people act to understand the mind games. Is the, you know, the thing we've done that we've done very well.
And you know, that's just the first stop.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Amazing. I mean, it's, it's endlessly fast. Okay, let's, let's get some of that more tactical stuff. Like.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Okay, tell me you think.
[00:45:41] Speaker C: I think it's crazy. It's. It's awesome. I.
Is what is kind of like your, your angle here is, is modeling out reality and just putting people in the middle of it and just measure all of the inputs and outputs. Kind of the ultimate goal here.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: I mean, my personal goal or what.
[00:46:07] Speaker C: Do you think it could be? It seems like it's also a personal goal. Right? You've been doing this for a real long time.
Your company is just extension of that.
What is it you're trying to understand about human behavior?
[00:46:21] Speaker B: I think the ultimate goal is I want people to understand themselves.
Self awareness. I mean, there, there is a philosophical goal here which is like self awareness. Real, you know, leads to self realization. And that is the only real purpose of life. Right? What, what is that? That is my philosophical point of view. What, what else matters except you really get in sync with the universe? The only way you can get in sync with the universe is if you understand yourself right first and then you, you start to get in sync more and more. So, yeah, maybe that is the ultimate goal.
Nice, Paul. That's a good question. Now, now I'm going to go on a retreat for five days and think about that.
[00:47:02] Speaker C: Thanks. That's amazing.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Oh my God, that's good. Amazing therapy session. That's great. All right.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: All right. So, yeah, so I want to make sure we get to like talk about partnerships because doing stuff with esports companies and the people that are listening too might be interested in work with you guys, like looking into the developer platform. So we'll make sure we, we touched on those two, those two points.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, the, the issue these days is you'd want this to be far and wide as possible. Right? If you, you know, we built this technology, it can actually do a good assessment of who you are, but it has to be done in a positive way and it has to be done in a way where, you know, you want to be done.
The issue is that these days it's hard to get consumer adoption without, you know, a ton of money or a ton of, you know, sort of, I'd say, unethical practices, which is not something that I'm into. So how do you get it done in a way where it spreads so that you can kind of get the data that the platform needs, but also, you know, help a bunch of people in the ecosystem, which can also be companies, it can also be, you know, stakeholders, etc. And you know, it's, it's amazing how we found that, how amenable a bunch of companies are around this stuff because I think they, you know, like if you have a bunch of users or employees, you do care about their well being, their mental well being, their emotional well being. You care about, you know, how they can grow for whatever reason. I mean, maybe it helps the company performance, maybe it helps your users performance, maybe it, you know, it's, it helps engagement, maybe it helps you get more data. That's interesting, but, but that is an effective way to get distribution for us. So, so that's, that's the tack we've taken.
And you know, we're embedded in the largest esports company in the country which has, Sorry, Paul. In our country that has, you know, 2500, 2500 college, you know, middle schools and high schools and 1500 colleges. On the platform, we're embedding ourselves across wellness apps, across training apps.
In some ways we just think of ourselves as a next generation training platform.
But you know, the thing that's interesting is like, you know, you've had these like tools like strength Finder, you know, or.
[00:49:59] Speaker A: You have to all these things. Anagram.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Exactly.
Like Enneagram or what's the other one? That's the, the super popular one that everybody loves. The most popular one, which is not kind of scientifically valid. It's you, you, you do it and you get a personality type of some sort.
[00:50:20] Speaker C: Oh, Meyer bricks.
[00:50:22] Speaker B: Meyer bricks.
[00:50:22] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:50:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Senior moment again, Paul. Thanks, Paul.
So. So, you know, we, I think all of those are reaching for a kind of interest which is, who am I? How do I get better and who am I, you know, in this world? And, and I think our philosophy is it's a fluid thing, so you have to always have constant interaction and do it in a way where people want to have interaction and you have to do it in a scientifically valid way. No one is one type of person. Right. That's the only problem with the Enneagram or the Myers Briggs.
You know, you're kind of a radar graph that can kind of move.
So that, that's kind of part of the process of what we're trying to do with the software as.
[00:51:15] Speaker C: Perfect.
Awesome.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Let's be another question.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: We had tons of questions here.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Go ahead.
[00:51:26] Speaker C: Honestly, I think, I think this is great.
Or, or we'll, we'll get into very, very philosophical stuff really fast.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: Let's go tactical. Paul.
[00:51:36] Speaker C: We got time. Do you think people change?
[00:51:39] Speaker B: I think people change, yeah. Well, again, it's. You can change your mood and mindset very easily.
Right. But long term, you can change your cognition in the medium term. And then there's some very interesting research around personality which indicates you can actually change your, your core personality, which changes very slowly through habit changes. So habit is, is a big part of the whole thing.
We don't have to get too philosophical, Paul. I mean, Gregory.
[00:52:24] Speaker A: I probably can't hear you.
[00:52:26] Speaker C: It's really fascinating to me that you know this topic, we don't really have the answer, but we're so fascinated with it, especially with the self help category. All right.
It's. I don't understand why, like, we're so fascinated with this.
Are you seeing like the trends? Is this just like a, like a trend? Has this always existed, like in terms of self help?
[00:52:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's the, the best I'll Go back to tactical business stuff. Yeah, it's very easy to sell the software because people always want to know more about themselves. That is number one, right. You know, no one wants to hear about a dream you had unless it's about them. You know what I mean?
You could tell them a story about a dream, but it's like, who cares, right? No one wants to see your photos unless you're in the photo as well.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: Like it's just the way it is. Right. So that, that is, that's not, that's not a trend.
I think the key is now how can you measure, modulate and actually activate people and show some progress and show some metrics from the software side. And again, going to Greg's question about metrics and how the business is going, the kind of people who are interested in it are anybody who's interested into behavior change for their own population of users or employees. And they want to understand a lot about, they want to understand a lot about.
If you're a healthcare clinic, wouldn't you want to know what time of the day people are more susceptible to change? As this question just popped up, I mean, that's happening, you know, that we're seeing is like once you want to understand, if you're a company, once you understand, you know, let's say again, healthcare clinic, you have people, you pop up our software on your portal. People tend to just, for some reason are picking these relaxation games at 1pm so the answer is, I don't know yet the exact time of day people are more susceptible to change. That's a great question.
I, I can't wait to figure out that answer. And I will try to try to get more data on that one. But that's a good question to frame the whole thing, right? Why would, why would a healthcare clinic here, they get aggregate data around, you know, what's happening in their audience and that informs their own business, which is also interesting for them. Right. That's fascinating for them to understand.
You know, 90% of my audience in the last two months pick games that they need to relax on.
But two months before they were picking games that were just more about creativity, but now all of a sudden they're doing something different. So I think, I think it's, it's a moving target. You know, there's no answer to, to who people are. But what you have to do is do it in a way which is kind of ambient, playful, and people want to buy into it also. I mean, that's the biggest thing. It's like you don't want this to be like some sort of weird monitoring thing.
You want it to be where people actually are willing to participate and do it in a playful way. And when you play, you kind of forget who you are. And that's the core of this whole thing, right? You play games, you should forget who you are because the game is so engaging, but then the measurements come back in a positive way that show you, oh, this is what's going on.
And that is an interesting dilemma because, you know, it could go in a dark, dark mirror kind of way, or it could go in a positive way, but it just has to be framed the right way. It's the right person. That's what we've seen, and that. That's our philosophy, fundamentally. And using that philosophy to your. Your earlier question, Greg, you know, it's people in esports, people in healthcare. It's people in learning, education, performance and training.
Ultimately, I do think this is just performance and training, but that is a big umbrella that encompasses your wellness, your mental, you know, acuity. It encompasses your ability to, you know, change and react, et cetera.
[00:56:54] Speaker C: Wow. Super fascinating.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: That's your question, Paul.
[00:57:00] Speaker C: Nope, I'm now out. We're. We're out of time. We're out of time and out of questions.
[00:57:05] Speaker B: Paul.
[00:57:08] Speaker A: Should we jump. Should we jump on some memes quick?
[00:57:10] Speaker C: Yeah, let's. Let's wrap it up with the meme for the week.
[00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
Which one you. You put it up. Which one you want to do?
[00:57:16] Speaker C: They're all the same.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: Are they?
[00:57:20] Speaker C: Oh, let's do. Let's do your.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: I did. I did a. I hear I did. Let's do this.
[00:57:27] Speaker C: Is this. Does this work?
[00:57:28] Speaker A: Yeah, this. This will be good.
So I just have the. I just popped up the search for may I meet you?
[00:57:37] Speaker C: And, like, you want to give the context. You want to give.
[00:57:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So because we're talking about earlier, the context is that Bill Ackman. So if people aren't aware of who he is, he's a hedge fund financier from New York, billionaire. And for some reason, which I would still actually don't understand, he posted what I think Twitter interpreted as dating advice. Talking about, hey, there's a lot of young, young, lonely men out there. And that when he was, like, trying to meet women, he used this pickup line, may I meet you?
And X kind of went bonkers with this.
With this pickup line from. Or dating advice from.
From. From Bill Ackman from a billionaire.
[00:58:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
It's amazing.
[00:58:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
Some of these. So there's the Original tweet right there. Right.
But yeah, some of these were. They're really good. Oh, unless they worked in the Palantir sword.
[00:58:41] Speaker B: Did he tweet that himself or did Whitney Tilson?
[00:58:45] Speaker A: This is. So here's Bill's original tweet.
[00:58:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:58:49] Speaker A: May I meet you before further engaging in conversation.
So there are just lots of excellent guys who are like, hey, I try this may I meet you thing. And like, I'm not getting the same result.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Bill.
[00:58:58] Speaker A: Like, what. What am I doing wrong?
It was pretty good. I. I had. I had a field day with this one.
[00:59:07] Speaker C: It's perfect. It's perfect.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: I want to ask the chat. Has everybody tried that?
[00:59:15] Speaker A: This one is good.
Hi, this is Jim, the owner of whatever H Vac, May I meet you? Huh? Bill Ackman taught me this. I'm acquiring local H Vac hobbies. Lose my number, weirdo.
That one's good. I like the skateboard one. This one's good.
[00:59:30] Speaker B: No, no, hold on, hold on.
Has anybody in your group of the chat tried this?
[00:59:35] Speaker C: Yeah, we'll see if somebody says yes.
[00:59:44] Speaker A: I.
Paul, I thought about doing all of our cold outreach to customers with the.
[00:59:50] Speaker C: Up with. May I meet you?
[00:59:51] Speaker A: May I meet you?
That is good.
[00:59:56] Speaker C: Amazing.
What was the other me that I posted?
Oh, okay. Yes, yes.
[01:00:04] Speaker A: Do you have another one?
[01:00:05] Speaker C: Yes, I do.
[01:00:06] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah, yours is good.
[01:00:08] Speaker C: This is just making fun of making fun of San Francisco rant. I. I thought it was perfect, you know? Yeah. A carport.
[01:00:18] Speaker A: What does it say? Available in SF for rent. Cozy little space. Car not included.
4,500amonth in unit. Laundry only smells on Wednesday with a trash catch full a steal. Honestly. Sears inquiries only send a DM sentiment.
[01:00:35] Speaker C: It's just a picture of a couch of futon. And then the replies it's got right to it.
Just the founder.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: Guys. So what is. What is really the.
Greg, do you know that the rent is. I don't know what the rent is in San Francisco.
[01:00:52] Speaker A: Oh, it's got to be more than that. I mean, we're paying like close to that in Seattle for like, for a place slightly nicer than that.
[01:01:03] Speaker B: But it's like a two bedroom is 4, 500amonth in Seattle.
[01:01:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, in a place that's easy. The challenge, I think in all these places actually it's. If it's easy to commute. I think that is the key thing. Like if the thing is a night. Because there's places in San Francisco that are a nightmare. Like if you live out like you know by where the, the lake is and stuff. Or there used to be a shooting range in San Francisco. Like there are places like pretty remote still in St. San Francisco and they got take like three different buses or whatever to get downtown. So I think you can get places cheaper. But if you're anywhere that's like decent in terms of commuting and price is just bonkers.
[01:01:44] Speaker B: The shooting range next to San Francisco State or I think right.
[01:01:48] Speaker A: There used to be a gun range out there. I just go with my buddy and stuff. No, I, I don't know what they do with it.
[01:01:53] Speaker B: It was all cops, Clay shooting out there.
[01:01:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it was.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Paul, what's the, what's the rent like in, in Toronto these days?
[01:02:02] Speaker C: This terrible. It's going down, but terrible still. But Canadian dollar wise is about $3,000 for a two bedroom.
That's Canadian dollars, though.
[01:02:12] Speaker B: I don't know what the exchange rate is.
[01:02:14] Speaker C: It's. That's like $2,000.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: The exchange rate is good now, right? Like. No, for Americans.
[01:02:21] Speaker C: It's good for Americans.
[01:02:26] Speaker A: It was a parody at one point. I remember that. That was wild.
[01:02:29] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe in the 90s.
[01:02:31] Speaker A: No, no, it was parody like in like 2010.
[01:02:34] Speaker C: 2010. I don't know. Yeah, I don't think so.
[01:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:02:39] Speaker A: No, it hit parody like recent relative in my lifetime multiple times.
[01:02:44] Speaker B: You are correct.
[01:02:46] Speaker C: Okay, okay, I believe it.
[01:02:48] Speaker B: I'm giving a fact. Check it later. Maybe the chat channel.
So how do you guys feel about this medium? You like it?
[01:02:57] Speaker C: It's.
